Episkopos Rev. Alixtii O'Krul V, TRL ([info]alixtii) wrote in [info]fanthropology,

Kink and Literature Mentalities

[info]dragonscholar's interest in McFanfics explored here at [info]fanthropology and [info]foofasaurus's post discussing the use of warning labels, here have both made me think, and the thoughts have been becoming mixey. Synthesis is threatening to occur. (Much of this is cannibalized from my comments to [info]foofasaurus's post.)

It struck me that there were two different mentalities functioning in the debates, and these mentalities frame the way we tend to look at fanfiction in general, both in the sense of reading and writing it and the type of analysis we do over here at [info]fanthropology. (I'm sure these mentalities apply to fannish activities other than fic, but I'll stick to describing fic because that is the thing with which I am familiar.)

The first, the "kink mentality" (originally called the "slash mentality") believe that they shouldn't have to read anything which doesn't satisfy the kinks they feel like satisfying at that moment. Fic exists not to be aesthetically organic, not to be beautiful in its own right (although these are still positives for this mindset), but primarily to fulfill a kink. If it doesn't fulfill a kink, then despite how beautiful it is, how much the reader needs to read it in a certain sense, the reader should be protected from it.

The proponents of this mentality are more likely to claim that there is a qualitative difference between how canon and fanworks are to be approached, a view which strikes me as rather odd. For them, canon represents works of art/literature/&c. and has to be taken as such--one is stuck with it--but one is free to choose between fanfic because there's so much more of it, and one should never have to read that which doesn't answer one's kink.

In the extreme case, this mentality is extended even to original, published fiction/literature. These most extreme proponents seem to eschew the literary approach altogether, and feel that even canon should exist to satisfy their kinks--that Anna Karenina, Villette, and Romeo and Juliet should all have

SPOILER

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character death warnings. (Of course, it could be argued pretty easily that R&J already has an implicit character death warning.)

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END SPOILER

On the other hand, if they don't happen to have a kink for dystopian fics, they shouldn't have to read Nineteen Eighty-Four or Brave New World no matter how important the insights those works contain into the human condition may be. One reads to satisfy kinks, not for insight, unless of course one has an insight kink. I'm not really sure how to enter into dialectic with these types: I can only look at them funny, shrug my shoulders, and walk away. Or maybe even pity them.

OTOH, the "literature mentality" (originally called the "gen mentality") denies that canon and fanworks should be held to different standards, but in the other direction. The standards that should be brought to fanfic are the same that most people bring to original fic, be it Joss Whedon or George Orwell. To them, the whole thing about both fanfic and original fic is creating an aesthetic experience. One is in it for the overall aesthetic experience and not to satisfy any given kink. Indeed, this is where Joss Whedon's dictum "give them what they need, not what they want" comes from--sometimes unexpected character death is precisely what the reader needs (or at least what the fic needs), but the reader rarely wants it, and chances are it isn't going to satisfy a kink. Indeed, it's the anti-kink, and that's the entire point.

The "literature mentality" people would be much less willing to provide warnings or even pairings for the readers because they are more interested in shaping the aesthetic experience for the reader than guiding readers with relevant kinks to their story. Of course, if no one reads the story, then no one will appreciate the aesthetic experience, so this method works better for people who have a readership which trusts them to tell a good story no matter what, just as we don't need labels on literature because we trust Orwell, Huxley, Hemmingway, Bronte, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, whoever to tell us a good story even if it doesn't satisfy our kinks.

The kink mentality assumes a consumer culture, in which we need to choose which fics out of a too-large pool we are going to read--indeed, in which this is a necessary survival tool in a fandom (every fandom) that like everything else obeys Sturgeon's law and is 90% crap. The literature mentality assumes trust in an author to produce good fiction no matter what. This being the case, one might suppose that only BNFs could successfully operate under the literature mentality, but I maintain this isn't the case. Even without pandering to kinks, a new fic will usually receive a wide enough reading (at least in a semi-large fandom) so that if it is any good at least some people will learn to trust the author. If I write a new Buffy fic, it'll show up on the [info]su_herald. Some fraction of the subscribers will give it a look. If they see quality, they'll keep reading no matter how I label it, and will be more likely to read a fic of mine even if they don't usually read that type of fic because they know to trust me. (I'm only using me as an example because I'm me. I fully admit the possibility that what I write is part of the 90% crap.) Also, leaving intelligent comments to other's meta and/or fic will encourage them to friend you and/or read your fic. Note that this method encourages the buildup of intelligent feedback from figures whose opinions you trust--your flist.

In my comments to [info]foofasaurus's post, I suggest that the kink mentality is more common among slashers, with the literature mentality primarily used by gen writers, with het writers and femslashers somewhere in the middle. [info]mofic understandably took offense to this, especially due to the fact that as much as I tried to use value neutral terms to describe the two sides, I didn't really succeed. Which is why I gave up trying here.

Even though I think it is clear which group I belong to and support, I don't necessarily believe one mentality is better than the other--I just have such a great difficulty understanding the other POV that whenever I describe it I sound disparaging. I have nothing against fic which primarily uses the kink mentality (after all, I have kinks, and I enjoy having them satisfied) but I acknowledge my mindset--the way I approach literature--is primarily that of a gen writer, even when I'm writing het or femslash, and this brings with it certain assumptions and preconceptions about plotting, characterizations, canon, fanon, and yes, even warning labels. Nor do I believe that any fic or ficcer fits completely in one category; after all, I've included in a very canon-heavy BtVS epic a relatively random Dawn/Dru-as-Amanda-in-thrall scene mostly because I'm a het male and I like femslash in general and Dawn/Amanda in particular. Wish fulfillment is an important and legitimate part of fanfiction; I just cringe when I see it taking control of a story and destroying the fic's integrity.

However, I thought it would be useful to acknowledge my perspective--which I thought shared many characteristics with others arguing against the use of detailed labels--and compare it to the ones I was viewing. My real insight was that I thought that what was true of me was true of the other side as well--neither group really understood the logic the other was operating under, and I finished reading the comments here with a distinct feeling that everybody was talking past each other instead of at each other or even to each other. We were just ships passing in the night.

Anyway, [info]mofic argued that I didn't really understand slash, and there wasn't really any way to respond to that. ("Yes, I do!" "No, you don't!" "Yes, I do!") Admittedly, I'm not a slasher, although I am an occasional femslasher. Still, I do think that gen writing preassumes the literature mentality in a way that slash doesn't. A fic written under the literature mentality, after all, is likely to be longer, more plotty, with a fuller narrative arc. A kink fic is likely to be shorter, a McFanfic. (It's extreme form being the PWP which exists only to satisfy a kink, and basically eschewing the narrative arc--other than the sex--and sometimes even characterizations in the process. This is not to deny, however, that there is plenty of grey area in the middle.) Also, most kinks are sexual, and gen by definition simply doesn't include sex. (The closest gen equivalent to a PWP is an angsty introspective fic.) Longer, plotty works that have a "gen feel"--like most of my WIPs--might include sex, but they owe their "gen feel" precisely to the fact that the sex is at most a minor element. It was the authors of such works--technically het or slash authors, but writers whose work feels like gen--that I found most often supporting not using detailed labels or warnings. I don't have any statistics to base this on--perhaps someone with a paid account could do a poll--but my experience suggests this correlation, and my theory provides a possible explanation. (Incidently, this also caused me to complete hallucinate a gen writer who wasn't actually involved in the discussion, because I saw het and slash writers describing plotty fics whose summaries felt to me like gen.)

So, my question is: do you think that analyzing fandom in terms of kink and literature mentalities is a useful fanthropoligcal resource, or am I in left field here? Can the ability to understand the phenomenon of McFanfics and a debate over fic labeling and warnings as related help us to understand fandom, or is it only obstructing what is actually going on?

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[info]kannaophelia

June 13 2005, 04:16:35 UTC 6 years ago

Eh, some fen think that canon should serve their shipper kinks. One of the reasons I avoid Alcott fans like the plague is the inevitable whining that they didn't like Professor Bhaer, Jo should have married Laurie, Alcott got it wroooooooooong...

There's silly labelling around... I've seen warnings for Tim/Gavin in my teensy Brittas Empire fandom, which strikes me as odd because they were etsablished as a couple in the first episode, and I can't see anyone watching seven series and then objecting because their relationship is present in a fic.

Generally the literature mentaility myself, and I'm trying to find a way around it... I don't think I should have to warn for, say, menstruation in a sex scene, but sometimes I feel I have to do so in order to prevent what feels like, to me, inappropriate responses. But the demands of the fandom community to know what happens in a story before it happens strike me as somewhat odd, especially when it's often the same people who screech "Spoiler!" But then, I like to be warned about noncon, because it's triggering for me, so... hypocrite much? Balance. Everything is about balance.

So, my question is: do you think that analyzing fandom in terms of kink and literature mentalities is a useful fanthropoligcal resource, or am I in left field here?

I think anything that clarifies perspectives is going to be helpful, at least to avoid misunderstandings and wasted time. But then, this kind of thing does lead to endless navel-gazing and circular debates, too, so YMMV - binaries generally lead to a "Which Wakefiled twin are you more like? Well, I study hard like Elizabeth, but I like to flirt like Jessica, but on the other hand..." results. MOst people don't belong fully to one perspective or another.

[info]gwynfyd

June 13 2005, 05:53:15 UTC 6 years ago

Doctor Who

I'm not sure the terminology 'kink mentality' and 'literature mentality' are useful. They're still offensive, in my opinion. And I'm also far from sure that people who are looking for kinks want warnings, whereas people who are looking for literature don't. Or that people who want warnings don't look for literature, or only look for kinks.

I think it's a case that some readers like to have an idea of the subject matter and so on, of the story they are about to read. Some readers don't. I don't think this has anything to do with interest in literature vs kinks, or maturity vs immaturity, or any of the other explanations people have come up with over the years.

I'm a Slash reader and writer. I'm not looking for kinks in my stories, but I don't like to read a story 'blind' so to speak. I like to be prepared, to know something about the story, the plot, the characters, and so on, before I start reading. I've always been that way, about what books I read, or what movies I watch. The more I know about them beforehand, the more I feel I am an equal participant in the story somehow, and the more I enjoy the experience of reading the story, and watching the movie.

Other readers/viewers want to be completely surprised when they read a book, or see a movie. I don't get how that makes them more mature, or more interested in literature. Or less into kinks. It just means they like to be completely surprised, and not to know anything about the story. So what? I don't care if they like that. I don't understand why it's such a big deal one way or the other, or why people seem determined to put readers like me down, as immature and not literary and only interested in kinks.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 10:54:02 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Doctor Who

I think it's a case that some readers like to have an idea of the subject matter and so on, of the story they are about to read. Some readers don't. I don't think this has anything to do with interest in literature vs kinks, or maturity vs immaturity, or any of the other explanations people have come up with over the years.

Well, yeah. But then there isn't anything left to analyze, and that's just not any fun. :p

[info]norah

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]gwynfyd

6 years ago

[info]mashlie

June 13 2005, 08:52:14 UTC 6 years ago

Well, firstly, I think that connecting het, gen and slash to the "kink" and "literature" mentalities is completely unsubstantiated (as someone who has read all three).

You did say that you connect the "kink" mentality to a consumer culture, where in a large fandom the fen need to pick and choose. Rathr than then linking that to a demand for wish-gratification and PWPs, doesn't it make sense to say that in larger fandoms with a high level of output, it is more neccessary to havet he necessary warnings and labellings because a reader can't read everything, so will gravitate to what they enjoy?

In a smaller fandom, members are more likely to read everything (and trust the author to write a good story, which you can't in a large fandom, simply because you don't know everyone), so that summaries are less vital.

I would contest your "literature" mentality, because even readers of long plotty genfics like warnings of character death.

Using myself as an example, in the Harry Potter fandom, I always read the warnings, and pick and choose what I like. (But if a new author arrived on the scene, it's very unlikely that I would remember their nme and so trust their future work). But Desperate Housewives, a small fandom that I'm dabbling in, I'll read almost anything, because there is so little around.

That explanation seems a lot more likely to me than the kink and literature theories.

[info]fides

June 13 2005, 09:09:25 UTC 6 years ago

Ummm... I think part of the problem here is that when there is a longer, plotty story even if it is slash or het then to you they have a 'gen' feel *because* they are longer and more plotty. To me longer and plotty has a 'slash' feel because that is what I am used to reading as a slash story. Sure you can define any longer and plot rich story as being 'gen' and then say there are gen-type stories which have sex in but that is just definition to suit your perspective.

Nor am I sure that most kinks are sexual. In this context it can include any plot element that people want to read for so... hurt/comfort, character death, self-discovery, action, horror etc are all non-sexual kinks.

Now there might well be a difference between those people who are willing to read everything and those who want to read something specific (or more likely to avoid something specific). I am a kink-mentality, possibly. I always prefered to read stories I like rather than think I should read certain things because they were 'great literature'. Life is too short. But that doesn't say anything about the *type* or *length* of the story.

Maybe it is something to be with the involvement that the reader feels with the character. I have definately heard it suggested that the reason people want more warning for fics is because they have a stronger relationship with the characters than they do with those in original works. Do writers and readers who get into their characters' heads through very intimate parts of there life such as sex relate to those characters differently to those writers and readers who are more interested in the big picture? Possibly. Is this a gender thing to do with how involved with the characters the reader/writer feels? Is it to do with the individual, what they expect to get out of the story or what fandom is for them? I think there probably is some interesting research to be done in that area however I think that there is a large trap that needs to be avoided with the categorisation because otherwise it is going to become about the terms and not the meaning and I don't think the current split is necessarily the most helpful one.

:-)

Fides

[info]mofic

June 13 2005, 15:26:31 UTC 6 years ago

Maybe it is something to be with the involvement that the reader feels with the character. I have definately heard it suggested that the reason people want more warning for fics is because they have a stronger relationship with the characters than they do with those in original works. Do writers and readers who get into their characters' heads through very intimate parts of there life such as sex relate to those characters differently to those writers and readers who are more interested in the big picture? Possibly.

It's possible. But it's also true, I think, that for a lot of people involved in fandom that they are already strongly invested in the characters long before they read the fanfic. For many people that's the raison d'etre of fanfic - wanting to read more about the characters they love. I think for some that's why they want to know pairings (because they only like those characters paired in certain ways), why they want to know about OCs (because they're not in this to read about OCs, but about their favorite canon characters) and about character death (because they're very invested in these characters and might not be able to handle watching them die, even in fiction).

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]mofic

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]parthenia14

June 13 2005, 09:49:30 UTC 6 years ago

I really don't like this argument. I'd like to say it's because it's full of logical holes but I suspect it's more because it seems to pigeonhole me as a rather dumb reader of slash for my own nefarious ends.

I don't actually agree with the point about original literature. When we pick up books from the shelf, we are choosing them on some kind of criteria. Some we put down, some we buy, based on their apparent appeal. The giant literary books come 'recommended' in a rather different way. I choose not to read Ian McEwan, because I hate reading about the death of children. I think Dickens is a great writer, but personally I don't enjoy reading him. I'm pleased to have been made to read Lord of the Flies, but it doesn't stop me from disliking it. Shallow, or experienced? You decide.

I read m/m slash fanfiction, mostly Harry Potter, and I like reading long plotty, well written (literary?) stories. I have happily read gen. and fanfic tightly tied to current canon, but I hugely enjoy alternate universe stuff. Sure, they're wish fulfilment. I pick and choose what pairing I will read and I actively avoid certain types of story. I would do exactly the same in choosing a detective story from a display at Waterstone's. It's personal taste. As it's the Internet, I have slightly less to go on, but a look at the author, the summary, and the first couple of pages will tell me if I want to continue. I occasionally read fanfic stuff that deals with pairings well outside my comfort zone, because I've heard on the grapevine that they're excellent. Some of them are, and I like them; some of them are, but even as I admire the writing, I still dislike the relationship being portrayed. So sue me.

My all-time favourite fanfic is novel-length (there's plenty of novel-length slash), plotty, deals with themes of trust and betrayal, conforms quite well to canon, deals with possibly-gay wizards and has a very small amount of startlingly graphic sex. Kinky and literary, I would wager.

Out in the real world, I read proper paid-for literature that deals with gay men's lives. Is that kink or is that literature? Can you tell, if you see me reading Hollinghurst's Booker-prize-winner, The Line of Beauty, whether I'm reading it for the insight into 80s politics, or for its rendering of gay male relationships? Both, I'd say. It's a pointless distinction.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 23:25:10 UTC 6 years ago

I'd like to say it's because it's full of logical holes but I suspect it's more because it seems to pigeonhole me as a rather dumb reader of slash for my own nefarious ends.

And I end up being a rather dumb reader of femslash for my own nefarious ends.

I don't deny that my biases color the way I put this forth, but it seemed better to "own" my bias than to try and hide it or run from it. Hopefully some with biases not my own can I put this in more value-neutral terms, the way I really wanted to but never could really manage to.

That's the purpose of the strikeout comments, too--trying to keep my bias transparent without letting it steal the thrust of what I was trying to say.

[info]dzurlady

June 13 2005, 11:00:40 UTC 6 years ago

This amuses me greatly, simply because you seem to be seeing slash stories as inherently more 'commercial' and kink driven, and gen stories as being more about the literary style of the work - the writing itself.

This is somewhat ironic, given the 'Cold pricklies vs warm fuzzies' debate (link to the post that spawned it all) that has recently circulated through the Stargate:Altantis fandom (and spilt over into others as well) in which mainly slash readers and writers have debated a similar issue - reading for enjoyment and happiness vs reading for the writing style and concepts. It seems to me that this is not a concept limited to slash vs gen (no matter how you label it) (and also that you are making inherent value judgements in privileging certain types of writing over others which I do not agree with, but that's another issue).

So, my question is: do you think that analyzing fandom in terms of kink and literature mentalities is a useful fanthropoligcal resource, or am I in left field here? Can the ability to understand the phenomenon of McFanfics and a debate over fic labeling and warnings as related help us to understand fandom, or is it only obstructing what is actually going on?

You seem to have several issues here - one is the kink vs literature debate (which appears to be a relabelling of a slash vs gen debate) and the other is an analysis of 'McFanfics' (I'm not even touching this one) and the debate over fic labelling and warnings (which seems to have worked into your post as warnings = kink fic and no warnings = literature (= better).

So - are you in left field? Well, even leaving aside the 'slash vs gen' thing, 'literature vs kink' even if it *wasn't* tied to any particular fic type is not a concept I agree with; it implies that it's a) a case of either/or and b) that kink is inherently less valuable than literature.

As for the warnings, others have said it better than me, but there's a reason books have cover illustrations, blurbs and are shelved in genres. People like to decide if reading something will be worth it to them personally compared to the time lost, and I don't think any author has the ability to make that decision for their readers.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 22:32:36 UTC 6 years ago

Well, even leaving aside the 'slash vs gen' thing, 'literature vs kink' even if it *wasn't* tied to any particular fic type is not a concept I agree with; it implies that it's a) a case of either/or and b) that kink is inherently less valuable than literature.

I'm not all that worried about inserting a false dichotomy into the discussion because I strongly doubt that people are going to start using it as if it were unproblematic. (Based on the reaction I've gotten, I'm really not worried.) There are enough postmodernists in fandom that the chances of my schema being reified and treated as an objective feature of reality was virtually nil.

What I was interested in whether kink/literature was potentially a useful false dichotomy. The overwhelming consensus seems to be no. I'm not entirely convinced, since it seems to structure my own experience in a meaningful way, and could potentially do so for others, but I never assumed I was disovering some objective feature of fandom.

People like to decide if reading something will be worth it to them personally compared to the time lost, and I don't think any author has the ability to make that decision for their readers.

But don't authors with dedicated fanbases do that everytime they do something new or different? Viewers tune in to their favourite television show each week precisely because they trust the writers to make that decision.

[info]mofic

June 13 2005, 11:15:27 UTC 6 years ago

Anyway, [info]mofic argued that I didn't really understand slash, and there wasn't really any way to respond to that.

I did, didn't I ;-)? I think I quoted Kris Kristofferson:

I think what they're doing's well worth doing
And they're doing it the best way that they can
You're the only one that you are screwing
When you put down what you don't understand

Well, anyone who wants to can read that discussion but for here, I'd just like to clarify that I was not saying - and don't believe - that there's one understanding of slash or one way of looking at slash. Rather, what I was trying to express is what I always say in the "Why slash?" discussions - that there are many functions slash serves and that people get a variety of things out of it, both as readers and writers. So when you reduce slash to a "kink" I think it indicates you're not really seeing that broad panorama.

I really do appreciate that you've tried here to form your argument in a way that doesn't put down slash. OTOH, I think I still disagree with you, even if I'm not offended by the new formulation. I think "kink" is an unnecessarily sexualized way of viewing the divide, actually. I think people who want detailed warnings and listings of certain elements of a story have a "genre" mentality, not a kink one.

I think looking for a story that's h/c or mpreg or whatever is akin to going to the mystery shelf in the library or bookstore. Lots of people like murder mysteries - I'm one of them. Lots of people want to avoid murder mysteries, and people who want the different fanfic genres spelled out for them to avoid them are in good company. Me, I hate romance novels. I don't go anywhere near that shelf.

I don't put detailed warnings on my stories because I don't think they fit into any of those genres. I do warn for explicit sex and disturbing themes, but I don't go beyond that. I don't say there are character deaths, because I don't think I write "death fic." I don't write h/c, although people definitely get hurt and sometimes receive comfort from friends or relatives. I have children in my stories but don't write "kid fic". Sometimes teenagers are sexually active, but I don't write "chan." I write character driven fanfic with fairly complex plots and a lot of characters, both canon and OC. I think anyone looking for genre fanfic won't like my stories anyway, so I don't feel the need to try to fit them into those genres.

Anyway, thanks for brining this here, [info]alixtii. And I really appreciate the careful and respectful way you summarize our disagreement elsewhere.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 11:39:00 UTC 6 years ago

I think "kink" is an unnecessarily sexualized way of viewing the divide, actually. I think people who want detailed warnings and listings of certain elements of a story have a "genre" mentality, not a kink one.

Wow. I think that is a really good point, although I think that the use of the word "kink" in fandom has grown to the point where it is no longer necessarily sexualized, and people will talk about having a kink for drawn-out conflict or a kink for character death or a kink for plottiness. I really wasn't joking when I talked about an insight kink. Whether this usage is useful is debatable; it does seem to extend the word to mean everything so that it ends up meaning nothing.

Not only is the so-called "kink mentality" probably linked up to our notion of the genre, people would probably be less offended to lumped in a "genre mentality." I'm just not sure how genre fits in. H/C and mpreg function in genres in much the way that Romance and Mystery do, giving a sense of what goes on within the text. Science Fiction, OTOH, doesn't serve the same type of function as a genre.

[info]mofic

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]mofic

6 years ago

[info]executrix

June 13 2005, 13:24:08 UTC 6 years ago

1. What about short, plotty stories (with or without any kind of sex or shipping?)

2. If you put a bunch of post-pubertal individuals together then most of them are going to have at least some sentimental and/or sexual interest in other members of the group, and some of them are going to be interested in members of their own sex. The longer the mission and the more isolated its location, the more likely it is that somebody is going to at least try to get involved with someone. And if the team is all-male or mostly male...

3. Whether you're talking about fanfic or commercialfic, some of the toilers in the vineyard will come up with something genuinely new, but most will use estabished genres. And within the established genres, whether they be the hard-boiled detective story, the Western, the space opera, or the Harlequin|Mills & Boon romance, some people will find something fresh to do with the tropes. Most won't.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 22:45:03 UTC 6 years ago

I get the strange feeling you're somehow trying to justify slash to me. You're preaching to the congregation, if not the choir.

1. I like them. Any recs? (Beyond that, what about them?)

2. This is true. And if it weren't the fact that people derive enjoyment is reason enough to make them all flamingly queer if that's what one wants.

3. And talking about the division between the two groups is potentially useful, no?

[info]executrix

6 years ago

[info]st_crispins

June 13 2005, 13:39:19 UTC 6 years ago

I think you're right about the kink vs. literature mentality ---I'd call them 'approaches' to fanfic.

However, I wouldn't agree they are closely and certainly not completely tied to gen vs slash. In my fandom (MFU) there are plenty of slash writers who take the literature approach.

I think there could be a gen and/or het version of the kink approach ---h/c and torture fic comes to mind.

[info]cathexys

June 13 2005, 13:55:51 UTC 6 years ago

but wouldn't it be better then to not use such loaded terms? i mean, while i personally use kink for generic preferences, it is traditionally tied to sexual interests and thus devalued (whether rightfully so or not :); otoh, literature obviously has that high brow notion that is problematic in its own right.

so, how about a genre vs style distinction?

also, to alitxii: as someone above pointed out, we do read generically (according to our kink) in non fanfic, and 30+ years after postmodernism destroyed the canon, i'm quite hesitant to valorize literature in the ways you seem to...

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]nakeisha

June 13 2005, 15:30:32 UTC 6 years ago

So, my question is: do you think that analyzing fandom in terms of kink and literature mentalities is a useful fanthropoligcal resource,

No, I don't, if only for the fact that the terms are highly emotive and immediately put people's backs up and push them onto the defensive. The term 'kink' implies that it is something 'not really nice', whereas the term 'literature' implies that is is 'nice and safe'. As kink is linked with slash, and literature gen, the terms automatically assume that slash is 'not nice', whereas gen is 'nice'.

I am not implying this is what you are saying, I am merely saying this is what can leap to mind when you see such emotive terms. Hence, there cannot be any use in trying to analyse fandom in such terms, IMO, as the analysis will be flawed from the start.

Putting aside that fact, I would also say, like several others have stated, that the lines drawn are far too narrow. There are plenty of people who like a 'literary' slash story who actually do want labels and warnings and a synopsis. After all, if we are buying a book in a bookshop or from an on-line store, we get some blurb, whether that book is high literature, or 'sex and shopping'. How else do we choose whether we want to read a book? The same applies, IMO, to fanfic. There is a great deal of fanfic out there, and so we have to choose, we need guidelnes to make this choice, labels, synopsis, pairings, fandom, etc. are those guidelines. But just because we want these, it doesn't mean that we only want 'kink'.

I'm a slash writer and reader, I read very little gen, and no het (at least not by choice). I want to know up front if a story is slash, gen or het, and I know that gen readers (equate to literary) often (not all) want to know if the story is slash or het, so we already have one label.

The terms are too broad and too divisive. They are too cut and dried, as well as being somewhat insulting. There are plenty of slash writers with a literature mentality and plenty of gen with a kink mentality, and endless people who fit between the two.

Just my thoughts.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 22:59:00 UTC 6 years ago

Putting aside that fact, I would also say, like several others have stated, that the lines drawn are far too narrow.

But this doesn't necessarily keep a division from being potentially useful. For example, I think the lines drawn by the male/female distinction are far too narrow, but I still use the distinction because its useful when I'm looking for the right bathroom. To go even more extreme, I think any A/not-A distinction is far too narrow (definitions don't have clear borders), but I continue to use language.

[info]nakeisha

6 years ago

[info]opera142

June 13 2005, 16:04:10 UTC 6 years ago

Still, I do think that gen writing preassumes the literature mentality in a way that slash doesn't.

I have to disagree with that statement. I write m/m slash, and while my stories on heavy on the sex scenes and acrobatics, there's no lack of "interest in shaping the aesthetic experience." My success rate in achieving style isn't 100%, but that certainly isn't due to literary disinterest. Sex and style can be mixed. Sex can be a vivable basis for a non-pornographic story. Written well enough, sex scenes can contribute to a plot in ways no other device ever could.

do you think that analyzing fandom in terms of kink and literature mentalities is a useful fanthropoligcal resource,

Yes, but not necessarily in the manner you've outlined. I think it's interesting to analyze why people write/read what they do, and what factors contribute to changing tastes or decreases in once beloved styles, but your post seemed to rate blanket-style the quality of works produced under the two mentalities.

Also, I think a Kinsey-type scale would be a more effective measuring device than a simple either/or. Most writers, esp. ones still developing their skills, move between the two mentalities. I'll use myself as an example (just because I'm the only writer I can speak for). My first posted fanfic was a very short slash PPW. Something that would be probably be defined as a kink mentality fic under your criteria. For the most part, I would agree. It was a silly, little idea written at a stage in my writing career when shaping any type of an experience, yet alone a stylistic one, was beyond my capabilities. However, there are snippets of things in it that I think sets it outside of kink mentality: it's purely wrestlefic-- meaning I captured the essence of canon and of those particular characters in a way that could not be generically duplicated; there's humor and (attempts at) stylized dialog where standard dialog could have served, which to me signals an awareness of style, no matter how clumsy the final product reads; there were little descriptions that made the story feel like "a day in the life of" moment rather than Burst-o'-porn-for-no-reason.

My point in all of this is that writer intent can't be judged by finished product. More plot than average doesn't automatically mean a devotion to craft. Less plot doesn't mean the author is writing solely for kicks.

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 23:04:07 UTC 6 years ago

Also, I think a Kinsey-type scale would be a more effective measuring device than a simple either/or.

This is what I had in mind. Not that such a scale would be automatically be unproblematic--in fact, it would share many of the same faults as the Kinsey scale itself--but it would be superior to a simple dichotomy. But notice that just as the Kinsey scale is ultimately based on a dualistic binary, my scale would be based on the dichotomy outlined above.

Most writers, esp. ones still developing their skills, move between the two mentalities.

I certainly do.

[info]yourlibrarian

June 13 2005, 16:05:44 UTC 6 years ago

Couldn't help wondering in reading the discussion if what we are actually talking about is more a matter of being risk-takers and risk-averse when it comes to reading for entertainment?

[info]rez_lo

June 13 2005, 16:45:22 UTC 6 years ago

That's my take on it in a nutshell, insofar as this is a debate about organizing and labeling (pro/con as well as taxonomically). The need to classify things, wherever one falls on that scale, is directly proportional to the willingness to read outside any specific template.

The further need to classify with value-loaded terms like "kink" and "literary" serves a different agenda, IMO, one that's more related to the legitimization of a particular point of view. (My own difficulty with the whole idea of a taxonomy for fanfic is related to the concommitant delegitimization of alternatives that inevitably follows any "discovery" of "natural" structure in the material. It starts to feel coercive in fact if not in intent.)

[info]rez_lo

6 years ago

[info]rez_lo

6 years ago

[info]rez_lo

6 years ago

[info]rez_lo

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]rez_lo

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]spikendru

June 13 2005, 18:15:26 UTC 6 years ago

I think a part of the problem in attempting a discussion of this sort can be directly related to definition of terms. Even when trying to use neutral terms, each person is still going to view established labels/terms through the lens of their own experience. Even the suggested differientiation of genre vs style has problems, as I would hazzard a guess that the majority of fanfic being written can be characterized as "genre", as opposed to "mainstream" sources. I watch "genre" TV, having very little interest in "mainstream" TV (as was brought home to me during the past five years of Emmy Awards, in which I realized that I had never seen even one of the nominated shows), so by my definition, all fanfic is genre.

Perhaps, new words are needed--one could coin words and define them strictly for use in meta discussion that do not have previously weighted definitions attached?

In any event, I think most differences are style differences. We all read the type of fanfiction we prefer; otherwise, it becomes too similar to assigned reading, and that's frequently not "pleasurable", but done for duty's sake. I personally don't have an OTP--I read/write whatever pairing (het, slash or gen/no pairing) strikes my fancy at any given moment. I've come across beautifully written stories that I've absolutely loved in that way. On the other hand, I do have a few squicks, and have stopped reading a story for that reason (amusingly enough, one of my major squicks is the re-naming of Buffy Anne Summers as "Elizabeth", unless it involves a spell of some kind a la "Joan").

As for warnings, my personal preferences are that listing the pairing and the rating and a brief summary generally tells me enough, without spoiling any surprises the writer has in store (and, yes, I do have a fondness for well-plotted stories and characterizations). If something is rated "NC-17" or "Adult", I assume that there will be language, violence, sexual situations, et cetera, involved. I am one that does not want/need warnings of character death in fanfic. It's fanfic; no matter which character is killed off, they'll be back in the next story. I have much less of a problem with fanfic deaths than with canon deaths (of which, in my fandoms, there seem to be so many that by the end, there is a dearth of canon characters around to play with!)

But this is just my two cents . . .

[info]alixtii

June 13 2005, 23:15:28 UTC 6 years ago

Perhaps, new words are needed--one could coin words and define them strictly for use in meta discussion that do not have previously weighted definitions attached?

I do sort of wish I had just called the respective attitudes Mentality A and Mentality B instead of looking for something more descriptive...but ultimately I don't think I could have ever left my own biases, so it was best to let them be transparent (which was the purpose of the strikethrough comments).

[info]dragonscholar

June 13 2005, 19:56:00 UTC 6 years ago

An interesting analysis here. Let me go in depth.

You propose a model, as I understand it, of people who seek satisfaction of a set series of desires focused on highly specific elements (kink) verus an overall aesthetic (literature).

First of all, I dislike the term "kink" mentality as it connotes sexual elements to the choice a person makes. I'd suggest a term that encompasses non-sexual elements and kinks and soforth as well. Perhaps a "focus" or somesuch term.

Dividing out the "literature" element also assumes that this is a polarity, which it is not. I myself cannot enjoy anything that is a "focus" (or a "kink") with out a definite level of "literature" to it. Or in short, by your design, I am an occasional kink, always literatrue, focused person in your system.

I think your idea is focusing on a polarity which doesn't exist, and as that polarity can be multiple (one can have multiple kinks) versus non-multiple (overal literature quality), it doesn't really map well either, as its a one-to-many relationship without a continuity.

One thing I think can be explored is the "focus" mentality and the "literature" or "overall" mentality as traits people may have, but that are not mutually exclusive.

Another series of elements was discussed above, in an aversion to risk/risk-seeking behavior.

[info]elspethdixon

June 13 2005, 21:36:10 UTC 6 years ago

Since pretty much everybody else has already gone "No, no, we do not like this concept," I feel kind of like I'm joining in on a shark feeding frenzy, but here goes:

Like pretty much everybody else, I'd say that I don't think readers/writers divide up neatly enough into your to catagories to make them universally applicable. I've got no issues with the "literature" and "kink" terms--in my experience, things like hurt/comfort really are like "kinks," not in that they're sexual, but in that people either like them on some atavistic level, or completely fail to see the appeal. However, I wouldn't say that having a preference for h/c, or romance, or AU, or one particular romantic pairing over another rules out reading and appreciating fanfiction for its literary quality. There are certain "genres/Mcplots" I refuse to read no matter how well done they are (mpreg and amnesia fics for example) because I find them irritating/boring/what-have-you, and some things I can't get enough of (longer, action-packed, plot-driven fics), but if a fic features my OTP and all of my favourite plot scenarios and is badly written, I'll flee from it just as I'd flee from an NC-17-rated Snape/Dumbledore PWP, and if a fic is well written, tightly plotted, and has good characterisation, I can appreciate it even if it doesn't feature my favourite characters sleeping together.

I also don't think having things like fic ratings, pairing notifies, and other warnings is incompatible with a "literary" approach. If you pull a book of the shelf in a library, that book will generally have some kind of sticker on it's spine indicating what genre it is (or, in a bookstore, be shelved in the sci-fi/romance/self-help/mystery/whatever section), and it will almost certainly have a paragraph on the back or the inside flap describing the contents. When you rent a movie, or see one in the theatre, you're told whether the film is rated PG, rated R, etc. People rarely choose their reading material or other entertainment blindly, so naturally they like having some notion of what sort of story to expect in fanfic as well.

In the extreme case, this mentality is extended even to original, published fiction/literature. These most extreme proponents seem to eschew the literary approach altogether, and feel that even canon should exist to satisfy their kinks


Isn't it pretty much human nature to not want to read things you don't like, published novels included? In every single English class I've ever been in (and I majored in English, so I've taken a lot of them), every book we read was passionately disliked by at least one student, because she didn't like the style it was written in, or didn't find any of the characters sympathetic, or thought the fact that everyone died horribly at the end was depressing. Or, alternately, was depressed that none of the characters died horribly.

While I'm glad I was made to read things like The Grapes of Wrath and Madame Bovary, since I can recognise their literary quality and since they undoubtably taught me valuable things about the social injustice of the Depression and why cheating on your husband and selfishly wasting his fortune is a bad idea, only severe and crippling boredom would ever motivate me to reread them outside of class. I recognise that they're good books. I also find them to be depressing and boring books, and I don't see any reason to spend my leaisure time reading something that bores me no matter how well written it is. On the other hand, I'll read Charles Dickens, Jane Austen, and Jules Verne for my own pleasure, not because I think Verne is any better than Steinbeck, but because I enjoy his books more.

[info]glossing

June 14 2005, 02:50:15 UTC 6 years ago

One is in it for the overall aesthetic experience and not to satisfy any given kink.
But what if my kink is an aesthetic one?

I'm actually pretty serious here.

[info]parthenia14

June 14 2005, 06:33:54 UTC 6 years ago

Well, yes. I don't particularly care for much modern literary fiction, because it bores me and I find it overwritten; my husband loves it. Some would say it's because he's deeper and more literary than I am (obviously, I'd fight them), but it's also a pure preference. There is some more obviously 'literary' fanfic out there - some of it is good, but some of it is dull and pretentious and hard work. Your aesthetic, my pain. :D

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]cathexys

6 years ago

[info]alixtii

6 years ago

[info]wemblee

June 15 2005, 06:00:54 UTC 6 years ago

(I deleted my first comment because I realized that I hadn't read your entry carefully enough. So, take two...)

I think that the binary you're setting up here -- kink (or "consumer", possibly? I like the consumer analogy) vs. literary ("libary"? IE, when you grab a book from the library, you're generally just looking for a satisfying read, and there are no warnings) -- much like many other binaries that have been set up in meta-type essays throughout fannish history -- might actually be more of a spectrum, or at the very least, the two modes of thought aren't mutually exclusive.

I think it is useful, in that it explains the Great Warning Debate that crops up at least once a year in pretty much every fandom across the map. But at the same time, again, the two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. I've seen the kink/consumer POV vie with the literary/library POV within slash corners, just as I assume they've clashed in gen and het corners.

A fic written under the literature mentality, after all, is likely to be longer, more plotty, with a fuller narrative arc. A kink fic is likely to be shorter, a McFanfic. (It's extreme form being the PWP which exists only to satisfy a kink, and basically eschewing the narrative arc--other than the sex--and sometimes even characterizations in the process. This is not to deny, however, that there is plenty of grey area in the middle.) Also, most kinks are sexual, and gen by definition simply doesn't include sex.

Here's the thing, though... What about gen that reads like a PWP? I'm serious. Let's say a fanfic writer named... oh, I don't know, [info] used to write all kinds of gen filled with gratuitous, mind-boggling torture with a little dollop of essentially non-romantic h/c. Sometimes the h/c had a romantic subtext/undercurrent; sometimes a maternal subtext/undercurrent; hell, sometimes both. But the focus of the stories weren't romantic relationships -- the focus was on torturing the hell out of my-- er, her favorite character. Undeniably, this was a kink of some kind.

While I-- she-- oh, hell, I had literary aspirations with this stuff -- I tried to make it IC, make it flow, basically improve my craft as a writer -- it was also completely about kink, however you want to define that. And yet, was it not gen? It wasn't het and it wasn't slash.

Likewise, just as you said, there are short, angsty introspective gen pieces. There's smarm. Kink extends to more than sex and sexual relationships and romance and there's always been gen stories that cater to that, so I'm not sure I buy that gen lends itself more to the literary/library POV than slash does. Plus, you can easily carry both POVs within your brain. I do it myself -- sometimes I'm in the mood to scratch an itch, and sometimes I'm in the mood for just casting about and finding a damned good story.

...it's really ironic that I'm arguing for kink, here, since I was often the "Woo! No warnings! Literary! WOO!" person, years ago. Or at least, that's how I identified. *g*
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